Chartreuse is a bit weird in that it's a kind of joint partnership between an isolationist monastery [1] and a liquor producer/distributor.
I lived near Voiron and did the obligatory tour of the production facility (I already liked the liquor thanks to a friend (hey Iv!), and the place smelled delicious!) They do a good job maintaining the mystique of the Secret Recipe Known Only By A Handful™, which I suppose the monks tolerate and maintain to ensure the steady revenue stream. As one story goes, they were the "first internationally distributed" liquor when the French Foreign Legion loved the stuff and decided to always have some on their campaigns.
The Carthusian monks are an isolationist order, with intentionally limited contact with the outside, which dovetails well with Chartreuse mystique. There was a 2005 documentary, Into Great Silence [2], about life inside the monastery, whose filming was granted 18 years after it was first requested!
I'm sure Quentin Tarantino already has a good supply of the liquor ;)
If you're ever around the Alpes, try and find some genepi [3] liquor (not to be confused with absinthe! Made from same genus, different species,) which you'll find is 70% of the flavour of Chartreuse!
It's equivalent to 'bum wines' in the US. Huge market would be teenagers and problem drinkers. They absolutely drink it in a single serving, it's an incredibly cost effective, high sugar way to get out of your mind. We certainly employed its dubious abilities in my teens.
In college we used to mix Sparks or Four Loco with Vodka -- "maniac juice".
Nothing good ever came of it. Redbull mixed with anything e.g. Jager, was also known to lead to terrible things. Sort of an entry level cocaine and scotch.
It is a bit funny that Four Loko got this reputation, when alcohol+caffeine have been helping people make bad decisions faster for ages (it isn’t like the FDA is gonna somehow ban rum and coke).
Because there's practically no caffeine in a rum and coke.
Very fuzzy napkin-math incoming: if you were to consume an equivalent amount of caffeine as a Four Loko via rum-and-cokes, you've now had about 50oz of rum. The caffeine would, uh, not be the problem.
Edit: Hm, though maybe this says more about my "rum, wave a Coke over it" preferences.
Haha, that could be it. I guess it is a mixed drink anyway so you could do whatever, but coke has a pretty overpowering taste, so if you want to taste the rum, you’d have to go pretty strong I guess.
Fair, another comment mentioned Red Bull and Vodka which would probably have been a better example, but I suspect that’s more a case of “we’d ban it if we could.”
I don’t know that I’ve ever seen or heard about rum and coke resulting in the same effects as four loko or vodka Red Bull. Could be the formula, could be the intent of the drinkers. I don’t think it’s a cognitive bias, but there is a rowdiness at a party with a keg and then there is a different level at a party with 40s.
Ah, Buckfast gets ya fucked fast. I remember splitting a bottle with friends on a few occasions when doing a semester abroad in Ireland. Even then we didn't particularly like it, but it was a cheap buzz when we were young and less discriminating.
While looking to see if Buckfast was explicitly banned from import, I did a Google search for '"buckfast tonic" site:gov' giving two hits, one of which was a cardiology report about a 16 year old who'd reported to the ER after drinking it mixed with Red Bull. Yikes.
I'm not an expert, but I think it's different in that Buckfast is licensed to big commercial distributors but Chartreuse production is quite restricted - hence the current situation. It sounds like this monastery doesn't want to industrialize production in the same way.
Yes, the Dolin génépi is good, I really like it. It is no chartreuse, though. The closest I have seen to a mystic revelation is when I had a glass of green VEP (that’s the aged chartreuse; the one I tried was from the 1940s). It’s a life-changing experience.
Maybe the lack of chartreuse will help selling Bénédictine and génépi. I need to find new cocktails, though, I quite enjoy a Last Word.
Could anyone on HN give some insight as to what these 130 might be? to my knowledge, we don't even have 130 edible spices/plants growing naturally in France!
Of course there are more than that. Look at any comprehensive guide book on edible/foreageable plants and you'll definitely find more than a couple hundreds. For example, the plants for a future database (https://pfaf.org/user/Default.aspx) lists thousands of edible plants that grow in temperate climates. Many plants are edible if only for some parts and many are not particularly tasty and/or need some preparation.
> we don't even have 130 edible spices/plants growing naturally in France!
I counted 44 here*, but that’s only because I stopped just before the letter B. There are loads of edible and medicinal plants in France, as in much of the world.
Living in Grenoble (25km away from Voiron where the Chartreuse is made), I welcome this decision.
I'd hate to see Chartreuse (also the name of the local mountain range where the monks' monastery is based) become industrialized to the point where its authenticity is lost, for the sake of global market supremacy.
For an alternative, try Genepi. It's not a brand name, but another type of artisanal liquor made out of a cocktail of mountain plants and herbs. Taste can be lighter than Chartreuse, but it warms you up just as well after a day of skiing.
Genepi production is pretty limited itself because of the heavy restrictions on the plant harvest, espacially since it grows mainly in the Alps. And the Mercantour rangers are not tolerant of people picking more than their share.
As someone who didn't like genepi, I found Verveine du Velay interesting. Perhaps it's less rare herbs, still nice green color, less complex.
I also hope the security conference in Grenoble will secure it's supply of Chartreuse (you get a small 50cl bottle in the welcome package for as long as I remember)
Not at all. In fact, like pastis genepi is a "generic" name, you can get it from any number of companies, and even make your own: the name comes directly from the Artemisia it's macerated from (Artemisia genipi).
The recipe is simple enough too: 40 strands, 40 days in 40º, 40 sugar (cubes), for a liter.
Though in modern recipes it's usually macerated in pure neutral alcohol which is then diluted to 2x, and the sugar is usually ~halved (but to taste): ~300g sugar per liter is a lot, the goal of the sugar is to mellow the genepi so 100~150g is usually sufficient.
In many place it's totally forbidden, in other places there are specific rules. Too many people are just badly plucking the plants without concerns just to brag than they have made their own liquor.
I you do not know your local rules, then just go buy a bottle.
Interesting. I live in Tarragona, the Spanish city mentioned in the article where Chartreuse was produced for a period of time. This left a profound mark in the city and nowadays Chartreuse is closely associated with the town celebrations, specially the main annual festival, Santa Tecla. The traditional drink for this festival is called "mamadeta" (which has clear innuendo in Catalan that I'll let you figure out), which is 1 part green Chartreuse and 2 parts yellow Chartreuse mixed with lemon granita ("granissat de llimona"). It is a bit pricier than the standard glass of beer but definitely affordable to pretty much everybody, including young people, so it was a bit shocking to see the prices listed in the article.
I wonder how the reduced production will affect its consumption or even its presence in the celebrations going forward.
Hey! We spend a ton of time in La Pineda/Vila-seca and I've never met another tech person there. Ping me, would love to get together with another HN member.
Artificially limiting production on a secret recipe liqueur is a great tactic for turning what could be a commodity into more like a Veblen good. The opposite has happened to Campari, where you can now buy a ton of different red-hued craft aperitivo with similar flavor profiles.
Alas, the Last Word was mentioned in passing, just not especially favorably:
> It’s honestly inspiring that the monks refuse to see their earthly purpose as satisfying the demands of some knucklehead mixologist doing his little riff on the Last Word at some lame speakeasy in some third-tier city.
Which is a shame, because it is a fantastic cocktail.
I'm quite amazed by the concentration of ugly opinions the author managed to squeeze into one relatively short sentence! I thought cocktails were meant to be fun, that they were meant to be riffed on and explored. I guess if you're from a "third rate" city that doesn't apply.
Considering the author's occupation (author of acerbic, often self-deprecating liquor-related books), location (Philadelphia), and the article's recipes (which include the Bijou, a Last Word contemporary that's also an equal-parts gin and Chartreuse cocktail garnished with a cherry), I suspect that passage is at least a little tongue-in-cheek.
Also considering that this is a subscription newsletter, I suspect his audience also suspects that, and this audience doesn't.
Anyway, Wilson's 2009 thoughts on the Last Word:[1]
> Over the years, I've championed Chartreuse in drinks such as the Bijou (equal parts Chartreuse, gin and sweet vermouth with a dash of orange bitters) and the Scofflaw (Chartreuse, rye whiskey, dry vermouth and lemon juice), and maraschino in drinks such as the Aviation (maraschino, gin, lemon juice and a dash of creme de violette) and a frothy alternative to the margarita called a Prado (in which maraschino replaces Cointreau).
> But perhaps the finest use of both liqueurs is together in the Last Word. This is a Prohibition-era cocktail invented at the Detroit Athletic Club and resurrected a few years back by Murray Stenson at Seattle's classic-cocktail haven, the Zig Zag Cafe. Its fame has spread as far and wide as the classic-cocktail movement itself, spawning numerous variations.
> With the huge, bold flavors of Chartreuse and maraschino mixed with gin and lime, the Last Word is definitely not a poolside drink, and definitely not for the appletini crowd. It's a thinking person's drink. A drink with a swagger.
> if you're from a "third rate" city that doesn't apply
Third-tier, not third rate.
And I’d argue it’s tier two cities which fuck up their cocktails and wine lists most passionately. Go to Bisby or Enniscorthy and they’ll pour a great, simple drink and tell you to kindly fuck off if you order something they don’t know. Order an aviation or Gibson in Manhattan or Palo Alto, and you’re likely to be treated well. But try the same in Phoenix or Aspen, and god knows what saccharine nonsense even a gin and tonic will arrive as.
They're a bit of a cliche, they're too sweet, and they have sort of a reputation as a quick way to get your date drunk. It's a gateway cocktail that's dead easy to make, so dissing on them is also a way to be snooty.
If you're sad about Last Words getting expensive, just switch to Paper Airplanes.
A friend working at Campari told me their strategy is to cut off supermarkets for a couple of years to focus on bar and restaurants, before an increase in pricing and a comeback in a couple of years.
They honestly need to try tweaking the recipe too if they want to move upmarket again. To me the amount of sugar in Campari seems high compared to other aperitivo and amaro.
I had the most fantastic mezcal Last Word at Ginbo in Palma de Mallorca last week. Simply splendid.
(Strangely, ChatGPT suggested a mezcal Last Word variation, dubbing it "The First Word", with a slightly different composition than Ginbo did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPMEozP8vvY)
And someone who, in response to a decision made by the monks for ecological reasons, chose to take his car and drive dozens of unnecessary miles just to grab all the bottles he could find and keep them to himself. Sounds to me like he should indeed recognize a knuckle head when he sees one.
'When the cocktail first appeared on the menu at the Black Pearl in Melbourne, Australia, in 2010, no ingredients were listed. And if you asked what was in the drink, the bartender would not tell you. The only thing offering the customer a hint as to what they were getting into was the ominous description: “You don’t wanna meet this cocktail in a dark alley.”'
Fascinating fact: one of the 5 people who know the secret Chartreuse formula is a parish priest at the Church of Notre Dame in upper Manhattan, Fr. Michael K. Holleran.
'When he departed the site in 1990, he became the only living outsider to know the liqueur’s ancient formula. “It’s safe with me,” he said. “Oddly enough, they didn’t make me sign anything when I left.”'
Chartreuse is an incredible liqueur with an incredible story. See NYTimes' "An Elixir From The French Alps, Frozen in Time" [1]. I see chartreuse's story as an inspiration for craftspeople: great workspace, integration with more abstract values, emphasis on quality, reflecting the landscape.
I studied in Grenoble (near Voiron where the Chartreuse is made) and had a lot of hangover because of it.
The "party-cocktail" over there is TNT (Tip'n'top) : Chartreuse / Vodka / Orangina on shooters.
I find it funny that the name for Chartreuse + Hot chocolate in English is "Verte chaud" (I'll skip the conjugation error), while it's "Green chaud" in French.
You could argue the same thing in English here (using a French word). But yes I agree we overuse (and abuse) English words. Don't get me started on the misuse of 's.. <facepalm's/>
Verte chaude would be grammatically correct, though if there's just a dash of Chartreuse in a cup of hot chocolate, I'd wager the gender of the most statically significant beverage should prevail (Vert chaud).
Also chances are you'd drink those from a mug or cup, not a glass.
Unlike the author, I do not applaud the artificial limiting if supply. I find it incredibly annoying that it's become impossible to find Chartreuse and that the prices are skyrocketing. It's such a key and irreplaceable ingredient in many cocktails. Unlike a fancy whiskey or whatever, there is little you can substitute for it, so I'm not unable to get my orders at many of my favorite cocktail bars.
>>I do not applaud the artificial limiting if supply.
If someone asks you to work 14 hour days but you only choose to work 8 hours a day, are you artificially limiting the supply of your labour? Or making a sensible choice for yourself? The monks have decided they don't want to turn the drink they make into a massive corporation that would be required to make it at the volume the world wants to consume. That is to be applauded - not many people have the strength and sensibility to say no when the demands of the world are greater than what is good for them and their community.
I want to think this comment was meant as a praise to the drink, but it sincerely rang as a selfish rant about how unhappy you are because your favorite cocktails will be harder to find.
Why should anyone not be unhappy that their favorite cocktail is harder to find?
The article tried to paint the monks in a favorable light for limiting their production for environmental reasons but the phrasing rings hollow to me. They didn’t stop all production, or release the recipe to the world. They merely limited their output which, much like many companies with monopoly power are currently finding, allows them to have a higher price per unit, while no one can come in and compete in their market.
The original comment did not come across as bitter-sweet as it should be. It came across as entitled, sort of disgruntled by the fact that the monks keep the secret to themselves and the drink can not be industrialized and produced to such an extent that they can enjoy their favorite drinks wherever they please and of course, at a reasonable cost!
Their attitude is akin to how people complain and demand stuff from open source projects and why authors are annoyed when supporting such projects.
It reminds me of "The Menu" movie, the producers got fed up with the consumers and they took drastic actions. Wasn't a big fan of the movie but I can see how creators would go to such extremes or at least fantasize about them.
The flip side of that is it does cost some money to run a monastery, and there aren't a lot of a modern opportunities for them to make money. Nothing wrong with them keeping their trade secret, and not being interested in scaling production.
Managing lots of production is more work and work of a different character than managing small production. They are happier managing small production. It’s odd to fault them for that.
Do you work every hour you possibly could? Would it be reasonable for someone to complain that you owe them more work because they would really like it if you worked more?
I think there’s a middle ground here. It’s very understandable that the monks don’t want to ramp up production. But being monks they also don’t need to acquiesce to the logic of the global market where their product will inevitably become the sole province of the rich. For a contrast see the Westvleteren Trappists who have taken significant efforts to prevent a Pappy van Winkle situation.
It's not quite so simple. A race to supply authentic Chartreuse at extremely high volumes is likely to produce ditchwater. Authentic ditchwater with the correct label on the bottle, but useless for drinking.
It’s a drink produced by one monastic order from (presumably) locally harvested herbs. There most certainly is a natural limit on how much can be sustainably produced before it no longer is the same drink.[1]
They chose to maximise availability over time (and work/pray balance) rather than maximise short term availability.
[1] Where that limit is is of course up for debate, though.
If you like chartreuse and want something in a similar vein, I'd highly suggest Strega, an Italian herbal liqueur often stocked on the same shelf as chartreuse.
Nearly every popular branded liqueur or aromatized wine has a number of substitutes available, but it sometimes takes research to know what they are.
Easy to find Kahlua alternatives; it’s a coffee liqueur and that’s not hard to find.
A little more challenging to find a Campari or Cocchi Americano alternative. There are lots of similar options and it’s not obvious whether an aperitif liqueur is a substitute for Campari or Aperol, for example.
Nice to know what the Chartreuse alternatives are.
Yes. The alcohol world's fixation on everything being strictly-controlled names makes the process of finding substitutes absurdly tedious. Like if I want bourbon but I don't want to support the red states that make it, there's no coherent term for "caramel-tasting corn-heavy whiskey".
It’s interesting how Chartreuse is this normal thing in Europe but seems to be this cultish cocktail i ingredient in the US. I personally prefer drinking it straight or in a Chartreuse tonic (some restaurants in Lyon serve it like a gin and tonic and it’s fabulous)
It wasn’t really a cult ingredient before the recent shortage. It’s in a lot of cocktails because it is great and was readily available.
But you’d also just drink it neat after coming in from doing winter sports and it was almost a cliche that bartenders would finish their shift with a shot.
I enjoy making my own infusions. Have you ever done it? Have you ever tasted Chartreuse?
In my experience, it's going to take a lot of practice to make something with the complexity of chartreuse that tastes good.
If you're just starting out, I'd suggest starting with only 1 or 2 or maybe 3 ingredients, to get a sense of what they actually taste like. If you put a dozen or more things in there, it's going to be hard to guess how to tweak the taste when it actually tastes pretty bad.
Since you enjoy making your own infusions you might be interested in this book. I don't drink all that much and it is almost all beer, wine, or cider, but I enjoy lots of the stranger, more flavored liquors. I have been experimenting with infusions myself but in a fairly undisciplined way and with small batches.
In times such as now where there are strong forces acting to push for more production and consumption, for less thinking about the quality & sustainability or impact of our consumption, I applaud their efforts !
This kind of act is simply great, it questions about the meaning of our productive system: do we produce because we simply want to sell more / becoming richer ? Is it possible that we produce for the sake of keeping a tradition alive, or to share what is locally available without disrupting the locality ? These monks have just made clear answers to these questions.
I once tried a cocktail based on chartreuse and it was definitely something. Can't say I would recommend anything based on chartreuse to anyone. It's a really, really peculiar taste, though if you are adventurous then by all means!
A bartender once told me the next shot was free but I’d almost certainly throw up. That was my first time drinking Captain Morgan. I did the same thing to a guy in a bar and he didn’t make it to the bathroom. The power of suggestion is pretty wild since it tastes fine, a nice enough spirit.
The is something depressing about a world where everything has been arbitraged away. The joy of going into a thrift store or garage sale and finding a diamond in the rough is disappearing.
On the flip side, I can find almost anything I want on eBay and that was totally impossible 20 or so years ago. I'd say there is vastly more available to us all than in whatever yesteryear you're imagining.
Sadly, I only recall having this almost 20 years ago. I probably wasn't old enough to appreciate it then. As I get older, I tend to appreciate the depth of flavour and savour these things so such more.
Apparently our sensitivity to bitterness decreases as we age. It explains kids' aversion to cruciferous vegetables and coffee, among others, although I think most of us grow to appreciate those things by our twenties at least.
Probably a good decision even for the customers. Single-malt Scotch blew up in popularity decades ago, and my favorite brands just weren't the same after about the 1990s. I've stopped even trying.
I disagree: the popularity explosion was accompanied by the development of local production in surprising places. You can now find good whisky nearly everywhere.
And to be fair it’s the same with herbal liqueurs. Don’t get me wrong Chartreuse is good but it’s highly likely people can find something comparable produced close by.
Sure, local distilling has benefited. It's a great point. My tiny town had an excellent micro-distillery that made really nice bourbon and my favorite gin.
But I really miss the way Talisker tasted up until the 1990s. And I'm guessing that's never coming back. For better or worse, Scotland isn't local for me and whatever may have replaced Talisker seems to be under the radar from here.
Even in the area around where Chartreus is from there is Genepi. It’s not a brand, more of a style. I’m not an expert but one might say Chartreus is a style of Genepi. There’s some very good Genepi’s out there (and some pretty bad ones targeted at tourists).
I was born in the early/mid 90s so I haven't experienced what it was "before", but can you expand? I'm a big enjoyer of whisky so I'm interested in what changed for you.
I can't talk to as far back as GP, but as someone who's been teetering on the edge of whisky snobbery for the past decade or so: a major change has been a shift to no age statement (NAS). This has been accompanied by an obliteration (either complete unavailability, or equivalent due to costs exceeding sane economic bounds) of older options. The logistics for a product that has a 20+ year lead time are extremely fragile against varying market demands.
This isn't inherently bad. There are some mind blowingly good options (Octomore et al) that fall under the NAS umbrella, just a different set of products to what may have traditionally been seen as a defining production technique.
Ah I see. You are definitely way deeper down that rabbit hole than I. I got Ardbeg Uigeadail (which I think didn't state its age, like you are mentioning) and thought it was fantastic. Even Laphroaig and Macallan and so on suit me fine.
Thanks for asking. For me a lot of single-malt scotch, up until around 2000 (maybe later) seemed never to have been completely domesticated as a normal consumer product. Depending on what kind you liked, it could be almost kind of gross. My favorite in the 1990s was Talisker, which had almost a kind of rotting fish flavor. I have literally tried mixing a dash of fish sauce into today's Talisker to recover that. (Unfortunately that doesn't seem to work.)
Talisker now is a bit fiery, maybe very slightly reminiscent of the sea, and otherwise unobjectionable. It doesn't have what I need. I wish them well, but either my taste has changed or theirs has.
This is interesting, and I love your taste for weird off flavours. I lately have developed a new love for whisky that appeared almost out of nowhere. Something about the alcohol taste disappeared suddenly and opened a whole world.
I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because my tastes are very indiscriminate (I like pretty much all of them) and I'm not that experienced tasting whisky. I had the cask strength Laphroaig (10 yrs) and loved that with just a touch of water. Really wild deep flavours.
Making millions of cases does not make any sense in today’s environmental content and will have a negative impact on the planet
Interesting that they make this argument, and not the rather more obvious one that their 55 ABV spirit, like all spirits, is going to be overwhelmingly consumed by people who drink way too much.
Not all top consumers are so poor that they have to go for the cheap stuff. Also, if you're one of the people drinking it once a year, twenty of you is worth one of them to the producer. It doesn't take many such people to swamp you, consumption wise.
I rented a cellar apartment in one of the most expensive neighbourhoods in my country for some years. (I got it cheap because the owner mostly just wanted someone to be there when she was away, also there was no real kitchen). Other than me and the au-pairs I met on morning jogs, everyone there was probably obscenely rich.
And I'm no expert on those things, but the bottles I saw lying along the roads on those jogs didn't seem like the cheap sort.
(Context for the question - I barely drink spirits, but I used to enjoy them quite a lot at a time when I drank more in general, and I'd be interested to read about it, whether this is common etc)
It looks like the results are for all alcohol, rather than specifically spirits.
I was kinda/sorta expecting something specific to stronger alcohol being disproportionately consumed by those who also consumed other alcohol. Like if 50% of all booze is consumed by 10% of the population who are heavy drinkers, does that skew to 90% of spirits?
Eh, I wouldn't point to Chartreuse as a favorite of heavy drinkers, despite the ABV. Far far far more people are getting shithoused on simple, cheap things like wine
I lived near Voiron and did the obligatory tour of the production facility (I already liked the liquor thanks to a friend (hey Iv!), and the place smelled delicious!) They do a good job maintaining the mystique of the Secret Recipe Known Only By A Handful™, which I suppose the monks tolerate and maintain to ensure the steady revenue stream. As one story goes, they were the "first internationally distributed" liquor when the French Foreign Legion loved the stuff and decided to always have some on their campaigns.
The Carthusian monks are an isolationist order, with intentionally limited contact with the outside, which dovetails well with Chartreuse mystique. There was a 2005 documentary, Into Great Silence [2], about life inside the monastery, whose filming was granted 18 years after it was first requested!
I'm sure Quentin Tarantino already has a good supply of the liquor ;)
If you're ever around the Alpes, try and find some genepi [3] liquor (not to be confused with absinthe! Made from same genus, different species,) which you'll find is 70% of the flavour of Chartreuse!
(dang, I miss Grenoble)
[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Chartreuse
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Into_Great_Silence
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9n%C3%A9pi