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> For all that tools like PeerTube, Mastodon, etc are clunkier and more limited than things like YouTube, Bluesky, etc, I think that argument is increasingly going to be irrelevant to their value

Their value is going to stay limited if people don't want to actually use them.

Technically proficient people may overlook something being clunky if it suits their needs in other ways, but it's a harder sell for the average user. And really, it shouldn't be an issue. Good UX isn't trivial, but it's not especially complicated or budget-busting either.





Users are also happy with clunkiness if it gives them other things they value. Ask any Windows user. Also, video game modding.

My general experience is that clunky software is what made people tech literate, and now that everything has safety barriers and protects the user from everything tech literacy has fallen.


Windows is also just convenience. Most use it because it comes with the computer

Or because don't know (or care) that they have a choice. Same with browsers. Most users will click the 'internet button' to get online

The main reason is the better alternative costs twice as much.

Wow. I didn’t know Linux cost that much! /s

Cost isn't only money. In the case of linux it is time to learn to use it (which is a sunk cost on windows: already paid it). Then you need to download and install it - again windows comes by default so a sunk cost.

> In the case of linux it is time to learn to use it

How much time do you need to take to learn "click on the swirly orange thing for Internet"? It looks just the same as it does in every other OS.

> (which is a sunk cost on windows: already paid it)

This is actually something I'm coping with at the moment, because I have to learn how to use Windows and it's the most backwards thing ever to use.


If somebody else admins your system. However if not there is a lot to learn. At least every distribution I've used needs manual updates from time to time. (though admittedly most people would replace the computer before I've seen anything hard happen)

Why would it need someone else to "admin" it?

Who currently "admins" your Windows system?


Windows user here. It goes vastly further than that. I've been using Windows since version 3.0. I'm used to it to the point where it's second nature. Linux is foreign and difficult to comprehend, not least because it explicitly avoids being anything like Windows or accommodating habits people acquired from Windows. I don't like the direction Windows is going any more than anyone, and I'm avoiding Windows 11 for the time being, but as long as Linux people continue to believe that the only reason Windows users don't switch is because they don't know Linux exists, Linux will not be able to attract Windows users even as Windows goes full capitalist enshittification.

You know the Firefox icon in Windows?

It's the exact same in Linux. Click on it, get Internet.

You do everything in a browser anyway.


I don't remember the last time I've clicked on a Firefox icon. I've pinned it to the taskbar and I press Win+1 to use it, which is 100 times faster. I've been doing that for >10 years now.

This is acceptable. We now understand that privacy-focused solutions are not appropriate for individuals with average technological literacy, and we cannot depend on companies to self-regulate.

At present, the emphasis is on the potential of large language models (LLMs) and the related ethical considerations. However, I would prefer to address the necessity for governments or commissions to assume responsibility for their citizens concerning "social" media, as this presents a significantly greater risk than any emerging technology.


> Users are also happy with clunkiness if it gives them other things they value. Ask any Windows user.

In that case, the alternatives are also clunky. I use Windows, MacOS and Linux regularly, and all of them got serious UX problems.


There are some technical barriers to approaching fediverse platforms, but I personally see the main barriers being cultural.

I'm a big proponent of Mastodon and still love using it, but the culture (especially early on) was exceptionally protectionist and lots of people got bullied off for very silly reasons. I think the attitude is less like a children's secret club and more chill generally.

All this to say, I think this is will get better, but the best way to help the fediverse is to join it, be active, and be chill.


I joined Mastodon, was active, and was chill.

I was talking into the void. I gave up after 6 months of getting no reaction and finding nobody of interest to follow.

(Worse, half of what I wrote is now gone because my instance shut down and Mastodon doesn't even have a feature to migrate any content to a new instance.)


I joined Mastodon early on and stuck around for a few weeks, before I got tired of constantly being messaged by neonazi gay furries who were very keen to show me how excited they were to talk to me.

>but the culture (especially early on) was exceptionally protectionist and lots of people got bullied off for very silly reasons.

Had no idea that was happening. What makes your say that?


I was there in the early days, loads of folk joined and their first posts got replies like

   * stop posting photos without a text description
   * stop posting like that without a CW
   * don't spell your hashtags that way
Because you couldn't see replies from other servers, they'd get quite a few of these.

> Their value is going to stay limited if people don't want to actually use them

Nobody really wants to use instagram either—there's basically nothing positive to say about the app or service itself—it just has critical mass.


Is this a "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded" moment?

More like texting, nobody likes the phone system, but everyone you know is on it

When texting took off, it was the easiest (only) way to send instant text based messages between friends wherever you were, even if the phone system is now heavily used by spammers and there are better options.

When Facebook took off, every Myspace page was so full of garbage that they barely loaded on most people's computers, and Facebook was slick and shiny and easy. The real name policy made it super easy to connect with people you met IRL. Even if it's now confusingly slow and FB Messenger can't display your recent chats in the correct order for some reason, it was the easiest most obvious option at the time.

I don't really understand why people use Twitter (at its best it just seems like a worse version of RSS), but the site presumably loaded quickly at some point and was easy to use, even if it's presumably worse now.

And so on. They persist through momentum.

Some things continue to persist, some things get beat out and die. But if you start off more confusing than your alternatives, at least compared to when they started, you won't get picked up in the first place.


> I don't really understand why people use Twitter

The honest answer is that it isn't the content(RSS feeds), but the combat sport nature of the platform. It's the only place where you can tell a billionaire any kind of awful thing you can think of. It's also the only social media that drives important people insane. The wealthier they are, the more insane they'll be driven.

Facebook will drive your meemaw insane with AI generated ads of legless veterans being given a cake.

Twitter will drive the richest man on earth insane. It will drive every journalist at any paper of merit insane by interacting with the insane billionaires. Nearly every journalist who uses twitter enough will develop delusions of grandeur that their brand of psychopathy is the solution to the nation's woes. Since their bosses have also been driven insane via twitter, it's the kind of writing that gets published. This writing will take the insane delusions of the insane billionaires at face value. It will go along with conspiracy and never beg any question that actually needs answering.

It's truly a unique and addicting environment.


Twitter drives them all insane the same way that we used to marvel at the way celebrities got driven insane by fame. The feedback is going straight to their heads and they are losing touch with reality isolated in their little bubbles the same way celebrities get isolated from reality through their wealth.

I guess it's sort of amusing that this happens, but I have no particular interest in it lol

Pretty much all of my Twitter (and Twitter clones) interactions are involuntary when they show up on news articles or other media.


Instagram makes texting look positively motherly

Typically crowds don't shove billboards every third person

At least for Mastodon and the rest of the Fediverse ecosystem it does seem that people actually want to use them, and more people every day.

People moved on from Mastodon to Bluesky because it was more responsive to user needs. I encouraged people to move to Mastodon but then watched them move on.

It is what it is - but it's worth being clear-eyed about what it is.


FOSS just does not have the aggressive scaling mindset. Even success stories like Linux' game compatibility and Chromium can be traced to just regular tech companies, as opposed to non profits.

Maybe this is ok?

Many non open source apps do get critical mass but they eventually go bust. Emacs, git, Linux and I think even Mastodon have a slower uptake but do not seem to have such a high risk of collapse. While YouTube and Facebook et al seem to have an insurmountable moat and collection of users the reality is recent history is littered with boom to bust failures:

MySpace, Vine, Yahoo all the way back to GeoCities.

I would be patient and only worry if mastodon is actively dying.

For me it's the only social media app I have installed.


What is the aggressive mindeset of Bluesky?

I have both Mastondon and Bluesky accounts and in my experience I find Bluesky is just simpler to use which attracted more of the types of accounts I wanted to follow. Nothing aggressive about that, just good UX resulting in a richer pool of accounts.


It has actually improved a lot since then. The UI has had changes, search is better, it has quote posts now. More usability enhancements are under active development.

Once "normies" have tried and moved away, I think it's too late. Unfortunately such services don't get a second chance.

It was probably hard enough to convince them to try once.


> search is better

Search is still awful, in part because a few people don't seem to want it. It needs substantial improvement.


> Their value is going to stay limited if people don't want to actually use them.

Namely, in the case of PeerTube, content creators. Youtube is convenient because it comes with builtin monetization. You can probably expect loud objections (rightfully so) from some of them if you download their stuff from Youtube to upload it to PeerTube.

If you don't have the content creators, you don't have content consumers and you cannot bootstrap a network effect (some services did bootstrap a network effect with plain and simple piracy, though).

I believe the UX is secondary to available content. People do make the necessary efforts if they think the benefit is worth it.


Is the UX even the issue with these competitors? The cost for bandwidth and storage and having fast enough servers is the real issue here.

To me a fatal flaw in ActivityPub systems is that your identity is tied to a server. Yes you can port it, but it’s a hassle. That means the server ops become these little lords over little fiefdoms and a server just dying takes your identity with it.

This also means your reach and what you see depends on your choice of server. I very much don’t want that.

It’s also confusing to non-technical people. Join Mastodon! But which one? How do I pick one?

Technically speaking, Nostr is better. Your identity is a key. Servers are just dumb relays.

Unfortunately it seems to be nothing but crypto bros talking about crypto, or was last time I checked. Nobody uses it.


> That means the server ops become these little lords over little fiefdoms and a server just dying takes your identity with it.

Or that means that everyone can be their own little lord reigning over their own little server, to the point that it doesn't matter, because effectively, network nodes don't need to be "big" to be relevant in a federated ecosystem. I'm not so much into ActivityPub, but I run an XMPP server for my family. I'm not saying that this is for everyone, but close-enough.


>everyone can be their own little lord reigning over their own little serve

Only if it's simple for the average person

And only until an admin of a big sever dislikes something you say and adds your server to the censorship list on fediseer.


> To me a fatal flaw in ActivityPub systems is that your identity is tied to a server

In contrast to Instagram, Facebook and co?


A handful of servers vs thousands.

Are you on Instagram?" is easy to understand for someone not on it; they search for "Instagram", install the client app, sign up and done.

"Are you on Mastodon?" doesn't work the same way as they would need to pick a server to sign up against, which seems like an important decision (what happens if I pick wrong? Do I have to pick the same server my friend has? And so on?).


> Are you on Instagram?

> Are you on Mastodon?

In both cases, you have to share the user handle, which is just a bit longer in the latter case.

> what happens if I pick wrong?

You move to another server.

> Do I have to pick the same server my friend has?

No.


You and I both know the answers to those questions; my point is that the average non-technical user does not and this presents significant extra friction that Instagram doesn't have.

(this kind of attitude of asserting technical superiority and blaming non-tech users for not understanding it and not willing to bother figuring it out is exactly why the free/libre software movement achieved zero impact with non-technical users; you have to meet your users where they are... or a competitor will happily do so.)

If you're not being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, you are welcome to search my username and "mastodon"/"fediverse" to see my thoughts on it in more detail and why it will never be a serious competitor to mainstream social media platforms. Happy to engage with serious arguments.


To me it just looks like some kind of fear of a new thing, because technically there is nothing really complicated about Mastodon. Still, I do understand that switching to a new platform corresponds to some non-negligible effort and one would have to substantiate it with sufficient benefits. We, technical people, should not feel superior but explain that the benefits are stronger than the downsides and switching is worth it in the long term, especially due to the ongoing enshittification of all popular for-profit platform managed by megacorps.

Agreed, nostr makes a lot of sense when you read about it and then you go there... Once.

Moving to another mastodon instance is simple. It takes 2-3 clicks and off you go. I think what you say was probably true in the past, but today, nothing could be simpler than taking your stuff to another instance.

Just to say that I'm using NOSTR on my apps, most people using those apps don't even know about NOSTR at all but they all enjoy the quick login procedure without emails nor phones.

Any libraries you recommend? Do you host a dedicated relay for your own apps?



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