If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
You've also done a great deal, unfortunately, to feed these flamewars. For example, you posted 36 (!) times in this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37292351, which was not started by your critics. Worse, of the 52 comments you posted in this thread overall, all but a few were not flamewar. I tried to count the good ones but there were so many flamey ones that I ran out of steam.
I'm sure a ton of good work has gone into your lanugage, but we don't need a perennial flamewar on HN, so please stop feeding it. More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37344925, which applies to several of you, not just Tozen.
The responsibility to fix this lies with you guys because you're the ones who (rightly) care most about the topic. The way I see it, there are two options: either (1) you give up on taking bait, focus 100% on the interesting parts of your work and 0% (and I do mean zero) on defensiveness and provocation, or (2) we just ban this topic from HN. Personally I'm fine either way, and I'm pretty sure the bulk of the community would be also. What I don't want is this status quo headache that comes up every couple months or so.
2) ModernMech, about 20 flamewar posts. This thread is very telling, where I ask not to start another pointless flamewar, get flagged, and ModernMech goes on:
The comment by riku_iki is spot on: "You are stalking him with toxic attacks on the minor issues which were resolved long ago; I think language which these people are using (scam, outrageous and frequently false claims, lying) is hard to call "mildly critical", and given they appear in multiple posts and their claims are not directly relevant to post, and proactively initiate all these toxic exchanges, this is exactly stalking."
3) richbell, 11 posts.
4) and a couple of new accounts that were thankfully flagged.
I'm not saying that all criticism of V should be flagged, just posts by such accounts, whose only purpose is to start flame wars.
You're doing exactly what I asked you not to do, perpetuating this pointless dispute. It's taking up a ridiculous number of cycles. If this keeps up, we'll ban the topic completely from HN.
My hypothesis is that if you guys stop responding defensively, the problem will simmer down and eventually go away. Stop focusing on criticism. Stop responding to it externally and stop reacting to it internally. Just ignore it. Work on your thing and keep your comments focused on what you've done.
If you want to do that, I'm willing to help you. But you have to actually do it. Responding like this is the opposite.
In the link you posted (id=36816398), never saw it until this, as the entire series of posts were deleted away from the main thread. So was not aware of the situation, and that it was being blamed on me specifically.
If you review those chain of posts, surely the account that first named V directly (not to even go into the list of many other antagonists), initiated and provoked by specifically targeting the V language. Including posting provocative or inflammatory links (which are spammed on most V threads).
I'm concerned that the definition of what constitutes instigating or being found at fault for starting a flamewar, appears directed at those who may respond with or show any support for V.
Those that are clearly instigating, continually snarky, or even directly insulting in their posts seem to go unpunished or ignored. Though, as a user, don't have the greater perspective on this.
Apologies on the rule violation, as often attempt to avoid crossing the line, and was just attempting to provide at least a contrasting point of view to what is continually taking place on the subject. After review, do see which rule was violated, which was not the original intent.
If you would be kind of enough to, can you instruct on how you view this situation?
I'm sure V is a very nice language but HN doesn't need to have threads about it, and HN does need to not have flamewars, so this dynamic needs to stop. I'm talking about puerile drama like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37292351 (which incidentally was kickstarted by someone on your side, not the other side).
The best way for it to stop would be for those of you who feel aggrieved by unfair criticism to stop being provoked. The internet is the internet—critics will never go away, shit will always get repeated. But you guys have the power to stop feeding it. That would solve the problem, at least from an HN point of view, because the fires wouldn't keep growing if you didn't flood them with oxygen. But it means developing the capacity not to be so easily provoked, which (I know well from my own experience) is not so easy. It's worth the effort though.
In any case, it's off topic and destructive for HN. If the only way for us to be free of it is to never discuss that programming language at all, that would be a shame, but it would at least be better than the status quo, and a price we'll pay if we have to.
Dang, I'm confused in how it appears V is regarded very differently from other languages and possible desire to completely censor it. I'm, however, highly sympathetic to moderation efforts at HN (for higher quality debates and opinions).
> I'm sure V is a very nice language but HN doesn't need to have threads about it
It looks to be giving the impression (maybe unintentionally) that threads about V are unwanted on HN. Where it's fine to have threads about other languages, despite them clearly having issues, controversy, or need of moderation as well.
All threads about V or posts initiated in a thread which concerns V, are not posted by "V's people" and definitely not by me. For that matter, I'm completely independent, despite what might be the perception. I have no relation nor any connection to who created this thread, or many others about V. I just was commenting on a topic that I saw on HN and expressing opinions.
> which incidentally was kickstarted by someone on your side, not the other side...
I have zero ideal who manofmanysmiles or modinfo are (both accounts existing years before mine), nor am I on their side or rather it's unfair to categorize us as being on the same side.
That someone posts something that contains a bit of support or is positive about V, can be completely unrelated to them being teamed up or in collusion, but just coincidental opinions or observations.
In fact, it appears manofmanysmiles is not a user of the language, but an outsider asking for opinions. Which then people posted their opinions in response, as would be expected for just about any topic or that kind of post.
> would be for those of you who feel aggrieved by unfair criticism to stop being provoked...
Would this not be true for both sides, not the side that is perceived as being supportive of V?
I thought the point of HN was to allow and respectfully give different opinions about a topic, not to censor a particular side or topic.
This definition could be interpreted that the positive side be removed. And purposefully allow damaging or negative information to be unchallenged and spread by default.
> critics will never go away
Totally agree, as this is the nature of human discussion.
> But it means developing the capacity not to be so easily provoked, which (I know well from my own experience) is not so easy.
If the meaning is to "grow a thicker skin" in response to criticism, on that we agree. A higher quality of respectful and informative discussion should be aspired to and engaged in, as part of maintaining the desired standard of HN. And would be why many, like myself, have enjoyed or have come here to see.
> The story comes across as very strange, to say the least. But a point that should not be missed, and why I made this post, is the reasons behind what is being attempted by telling such stories and painting such a narrative.
> It's indicative of what the V language has been facing, and the hidden assault on it's public image (as part of an ongoing language war) that many casuals don't realize is going on.
You have made numerous comments in this thread dismissing any criticism of V as coordinated effort from jealous competitors. Again, what _proof_ do you have of this "language war"? How is a single comment indicative of a "hidden assault"?
On June 20th of 2019, and prior to the open-source release of V on June 22nd of 2019, the creators of competing languages, and various supporters of theirs made very disparaging remarks against V and it's creator[1].
V was falsely characterized and accused of being a "scam", "vaporware", or "fraud" that really didn't exist or its source would not be released to the public. To include, V's creator was allowed to be heavily and repeatedly insulted on the thread.
The creator of one of the languages made a direct plea to not give money to the V project, and instead give that money to himself and another creator[1]. Which, was way beyond the usual lines of civility. This was later added to, with the other creator (back in 2019) making a somewhat similar plea for people to give him their money instead while doing harsh attacks on V, from his website[2].
Surrounding that, was angry talk over how much monetary support V was getting[1]. "He's up to 56% of the income I make on Patreon..., and I've been busting my ass for years..."[1]. This can be viewed as jealousy over the amount another developer was getting, so early on.
Such behavior by language creators, against another, is clearly and extremely irregular. While both creators later on kind of walked backed their earlier statements and attempted to remove themselves from heightened drama and initiating a language war, it was arguably way too late. The statements were walked back a bit, because they were in error. V's creator made an early release for his Patreon supporters, which he has the right to, that was taken out of context. Furthermore, he did release the source for V, 2 days later and in June (as was promised). Despite this, the goal posts were moved, to continually find anything else to attack V on (from when it was an alpha) as a newer competing language.
Over the years, the drama has persisted. To include HN accounts dedicated for the purpose of attacking or insulting V (to include sleeper or newly created accounts), in the frame of an overall wider effort spanning years and various different websites. From time to time, the opposition against V, has also mistakenly or nonchalantly identified themselves as such (can be seen through search). Casual readers on HN or other websites, often don't know of the motives behind unnecessary or odd vitriol, so this can be "hidden" to them.
Lastly, the V language has every right to exist and flourish, as those other languages. V has numerous developers, contributors, and supporters who make it continually better.
